Scott M. Curran: When the world's on Fire, who shows up nonprofits every time when the government's in shambles politics is tearing us apart and businesses are too timid to take a stand—nonprofits remain on the front lines of civil society 24/7, from hospitals and schools to churches and soup kitchens, from disaster relief organizations to animal rescues. The list goes on and on, but successfully running a nonprofit, that's where things get hard, so hard that one third of all new nonprofits fail in their first 10 years, but they don't have to. 

Welcome to Better Good, the show where you learn how to best do good and how you can too. I'm your host Scott Curran. For 25 years, I've served as a corporate lawyer, in-house general counsel, and advisor to some of the most extraordinary social impact work spanning the private sector, philanthropy and social enterprises.

On this podcast, I talk to the innovators re-imagining how the world does good, bringing you candid and inspiring conversations. If doing good is something you care about. You're in the right place because the world's biggest problems won't wait, and neither should you. My guest today is Joan Garry, one of the world's leading experts on nonprofits, and the founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab.

She's had an incredible career, from being part of the executive team that launched MTV to working with boxing promoter Don King, to becoming CEO of a national nonprofit in crisis, saving it from failure. And now she's helping millions of others working to serve the nonprofit sector, the third largest in our nation's economy. 

Joan has seen it all. The many lessons she's learned along the way turned her into one of the world's greatest experts for helping nonprofits not just survive, but thrive. Joan brings both wisdom and humor to everything she does. This is Better Good. And here's my conversation with Joan Garry. 

Scott M. Curran: If you think back to the earliest possible time in your life when you discovered that doing good was a thing and or that you might be able to do it.

Joan Garry: The part of your question that sticks me is that I think I am an extraordinarily late bloomer. I would like to think that that came to me much earlier than it did. This is a story about me in my twenties. It was not like six.Like twenties, like late bloomer. Okay. And my wife and I decided we were gonna have kids before it became like a thing right before the gave you boom and there Before marriage equality, I was a legal stranger to our kids because there was no marriage equality.

Eileen did all the birthing and just 'cause I did all the catching doesn't mean I got any rights. Meanwhile, Eileen's parents are both Holocaust survivors and they were scary because they wanted nothing to do with us. They wanted nothing to do with me, and I knew that if something happened to Eileen, they would come and grab my children from me.

We went to a local attorney in Montclair, New Jersey where we lived, and we decided to actually file a little local family lawsuit to say Joan should have legal standing to the kids. Actually, this was our oldest kid at the time. We went through a 10 month process. We were the most boring couple, right? I was the primary caregiver.

Eileen was working at the BBC at the time, and 12 months later, they issued a study saying that I deserved legal rights to my own children. It was never intended to be a political statement. And I remember waiting at the bus to come to New York. I think I was working at Showtime, part-time at the time.

And people were honking, like honking 'cause they had seen the newspaper. Mm. And we got to port authority and you know, I said, you know, I mean I bet maybe there's like a little story on the back page about this. Wouldn't that be cool? And I don't know if it was a slow news day or they just like lesbian and big print on the newspaper. 

But anyway, as we got closer to Hudson News, the papers just got bigger and bigger. Lesbian partner adopts children! And it was front page news. As a result of what we did, thousands of families in the state of New Jersey were able to legally adopt their own kids and do second parents, second parent adoptions with no hassle and no money.

That's when I got the cheesy thing that said, ‘Oh, I get this. You do that and it has this enormous ripple effect. And that's when I realized, 'cause I was at Showtime at the time and I was managing the joint venture between Showtime and Don King. 

Scott M. Curran: I know this story, but I want you to unpack it in a bit. 

Joan Garry: And I absolutely convinced in that moment that there were probably things I could, I could probably do better with my skills and attributes than that. And that was the aha moment for me. That one person can make a difference. And then within six months. Someone said to me, and I think it was my wife, ‘You know the job at GLAAD is open, you'd make a great executive director of a gay rights organization.” And I was like, I had never asked anybody for money before in my life. But I cared deeply. GLAAD was a media advocacy organization so I could wear both hats, and I was hell bent on making sure that the world treated my kids well. And so I took a, you know, a semi cliff dive and went over to GLAAD.

Scott M. Curran: We'll pick up there in just a second, but tell those who aren't familiar with your career trajectory. How you started nowhere near the nonprofit industry. 

Joan Garry: I started nowhere near the nonprofit.

Scott M. Curran: Because I know you and most of the world now knows you as the preeminent guru of nonprofit leadership. And we read about you. I read about you. I've been a fan. Long time listener. First time caller. So I was on your podcast.I've been, I was a member of your Lab for years. I know you exclusively until I looked into your bio and learned more about you. As a nonprofit expert, but you did not start your career that way at all. 

Joan Garry: I did not, no. I am a, uh, a Catholic school-educated kid. Never was on a, in a classroom without a crucifix on the wall, including Fordham University, although I do think of Jesuits as a bridge between priests and rabbis. More on that. Through networking and contacts, because I'm good at that stuff, I met somebody who said, you know, there's this company, they're starting this cable channel that has to do with music videos and maybe I can get you an interview over there. And within like a month, I had a job on the management team that launched MTV.

And what my job was there was to think about different ways for MTV to make money besides ad revenue. Wrote the business plan for the MTV Video Music Awards. For their merchandising program. And it was there that I cut my teeth on startup stuff. Now it was in the comfort of a larger company, but I have always believed, um, that there is a common thread, that the gestalt of a startup, pf a corporate startup, and the gestalt of a nonprofit, are extremely similar, high intensity urgency, trying to find the resources, trying to illustrate proof of concept and try and trying to take off. So I was there for seven years. And then I went over to Showtime to start their now dinosaur pay-per-view business, which wasn't in 1990.

Before I knew it, I was managing the joint venture between Showtime and Don King. And in fact, when I interviewed for my job at GLAAD and they said, ‘Have you ever had any experience fundraising?’ I said, ‘Well, every quarter I have to extract money that Don King owes Showtime out of Don King and his henchmen, and I do a pretty good job of it.’

That was all I had. I had nothing else and they fell for it. 

Scott M. Curran: Has anything been harder in the fundraising world for you than that then? 

Joan Garry: Don King? Yeah. No, he was a heart. That was, that was. He didn't have a big heart the same way people in the nonprofit sector do. Fair enough. And I feel like that's where I belonged there.

Scott M. Curran: And when you did wind up at GLAAD it wasn't Sunshine, rainbow and Unicorns. It was not, it was not an organization on the upswing. It was a steep hill. And you had a heavy boulder to push. 

Joan Garry: I did. I did. We had, uh. I dunno, 295 bucks in the bank and, uh, lots and lots of accounts payable. And I borrowed money from board members to avoid having to lay people off because I knew we were doing a special event in the spring so that if we, if we fell apart, I'd at least have the money to pay everybody back before we fold.

Scott M. Curran: Did you know of that condition before you took the job? 

Joan Garry: It's really funny. I think I just wrote a blog post about this, actually, Scott, things that you should ask during an interview, and I intentionally didn't ask them about finances. I really like to be needed, and I felt like if I looked at the finances and saw how bad they were, I would want the job even more.

And so I just figured, I sort of assumed the board probably didn't know how bad it was and that it was gonna be bad. I didn't think it was gonna be that bad. The silver lining in it is it made me a very aggressive and bold fundraiser because my board was anxious that I would not be a good fundraiser, and I like to prove people wrong.

I like to get A's on my book reports. Yeah. And so like my first week there I got a $25 gift and that was like halfway to payroll. 

Scott M. Curran: What did it look like from there? Because this, this, not just because I think it's interesting about your background in bio and the story of GLAAD, which continues to evolve and unfold, in some public ways now that you've written about in, in, in the past year. How long did it take for you to get GLAAD onto solid footing? What did you learn from it and how solid was that footing, actually, now that you look back on it? 

Joan Garry: I came with a vision. I knew what I thought. GLAAD could be, GLAAD, had historically been a watchdog that wagged its finger at media for defamatory coverage of the LGBT community, and I believed that there was the ability for it to be not just reactive, but proactive. To have relationships with a Time Magazine or a producer in Hollywood or Mark Burnett from Survivor and, say, rather than us come after you later and say, ‘Why don't you have a gay Castaway on Survivor?’ I believed we could live in a world where we had relationships with Mark Burnett and we would be able to go and say, ‘Here's why you should have a gay Castaway on on Survivor.’

Now, did I know that the first year he had Survivor? The winner was gonna be Richard Hatch. He was gonna go, he was gonna go to jail for tax fraud. No, I did not know that. I would've liked a better member of my club. That's all right. But I got what I got. And so I sold that vision and I sold it largely in Hollywood 'cause there was gold in them, their hills, and largely to producers who didn't want their fingers wagged at.

And so I jokingly said that I didn't really know what GLAAD actually did for the first year until I had socked away a lot of dollars. Until I had moved out, someone who was really problematic and very high profile, whose name was at that time Chastity Bono. And until I brought someone in, I played to the organization's strengths, which was Hollywood. I brought in a guy who really knew Hollywood and had really great relationships and that I, I sort of, I played the strong suit. Raised money, and then I was able to expand to be able to, um, expand the vision into journalism, into working with the New York Times to get gay and lesbian couples on their wedding pages and things like that.

I, I would say, the lesson I learned was that I kind of had the right idea. I went, came in with a vision that was backed in, backed up by the board to do this reactive/proactive dance, both carrot and stick, and it sold really well to donors and we got really, really successful. And then we were able to diversify our revenue because we were able to bring up major donor fundraising to offset how disproportionately the organization was reliant on the GLAAD Media Awards for its revenue.

Scott M. Curran: And how long did you stay at GLAAD? 

Joan Garry: I was at, GLAAD for eight years. Why did I go? Do you wanna ask me why I went? I wasn't going to, but now I Do you know the, before I mentioned three kids? Yeah. Junior high school and high school, they're a bitch man. And we decided that somebody needed to be home full time.

And I often think that nonprofit executive directors way overstay their welcome. I wanted to go out on a high, like, and, but I, I didn't really, I wouldn't have gone that quickly otherwise, but I went home so that somebody was home after school. When the kids got home, and that's when I started to write, when I started to do some, so people said, ‘Would you coach me because you have private sector experience and can teach me how to be a better manager? You are a great public speaker and you're a great fundraiser.” So that's how I became an accidental consultant. 

Scott M. Curran: There's a lot of through lines here and I wanna unpack a couple of them. But you like a little messy, you like I do. You like a startup, you like a place Without an HR department, you don't mind a place with a challenge, fundraising or leadership or otherwise.

Joan Garry: No, I, you're absolutely right. In fact, Joy, my executive assistant, who really I work for her, she will say, ‘Okay. Someone called, interested in having you coach them and they are a hot mess. You're gonna like them.’

Scott M. Curran: What, what do you, what do you think it is about it? Is it the energy, is it the excitement? Is it that you know the answers, that you can see it differently? 

Joan Garry: Yes. Like I think a little bit of it is, the mess is probably not as bad as they think it is. That I actually have done that, I've been around this, on these rodeos enough to know that there are, um, small incremental steps you can take. When someone says, ‘I wanna fire my entire board,’ I can say, ‘Well, you're not gonna do that today.So here are some things we might talk about, about how you could, you know, think differently about your board.’ So I just also know that. People who are in big hot messes are really, really anxious. And while I may be anxious a lot in my personal life, in my coaching business, I am fun, interesting, entertaining.

I have stories, uh, and I have been in their shoes, right? And I think that that's the single biggest thing. I've been a board member, a donor, uh, an executive director, a volunteer, and I think that that gives me way more kinda credibility and a sort of a peer relationship with my clients, that really serves me well.

Scott M. Curran: So you make this transition, you go home to be with the kids, you start doing a little coaching and consulting, and today, 8,000 people every month, including me, are part of a community. You now have a membership-based business, which I know for a fact in the world of membership based businesses is regarded as one of the most successful and certainly is the most successful, if not the only one in the nonprofit space that does anything close to what you do.

Joan Garry: I didn't mean to do any of this, Scott. I meant to do a bunch of different things while until my kids went off to college, and then I figured I'd have one more big. Nonprofit ed gig, and then I'd call it a day. And so I taught at Penn for a while at the Annenberg School, and then I did some coaching, and then I started the blog and I thought it will reveal itself to me.

And so I made all these different plays and then I realized that the play was the thing, like all of those things were part of a cloth, right? That I am fundamentally an educator. But it was not at all what I intended and I had no idea. So when I went, I thought, okay, I've, I, maybe I should have a website, like I should be a grownup about this.

I was referred to a guy named Scott Paley. He did websites for nonprofits. I said, I need a website. We talked, he said, gimme some writing samples. He said, oh my goodness, you should write a blog. And we did a little landscape analysis and uh, and the blog just totally took off. The blog wasn't bringing me prospects that could afford me, right? 

Because 70% of the nonprofits out there have budgets under a million dollars and they, they can't afford any coaches, right? This is one of those Michael Hyatt things. What challenging times make possible, right? And all of a sudden it was like, oh, what if we made a membership site for those people? It would be affordable.

You could scale your coaching, you could help them. We could create a community that would make them feel. Uh, like they were surrounded by, like, they, they could come in, we'd make them hot chocolate, we'd have the fire going while they were outside in the pouring rain. And that's our secret sauce at the Lab is that, is that we make them, we see them, we see them as doing the hardest work there is.

Scott M. Curran: The community aspect of it.  Shout out to Michael Hyatt. Shout out to Stu McLaren all, all the people who have pioneered this business model, which you and I both know well, the title of your. Blog was, was, did it start there with, nonprofits are messy? 

Joan Garry: No, actually. Okay. Uh, we just made it Joan Garry Consulting 'cause it was easier to Google. It was a tagline or something. When we, when I launched the podcast, we made the podcast, nonprofits are messy. I wanted to call my book Nonprofits are Messy, but publishers will always tell you that people Google the thing they won't Google Nonprofits are messy. They're gonna Google Joan Garry's Guide to Nonprofit Leadership. So my book is called Joan Garry's, Guide to Nonprofit Leadership. 

Scott M. Curran: The membership based business is called Nonprofit Leadership Lab—nonprofitleadership-lab.com. 

Joan Garry: My team calls it Joanlandia, allthingsjoan@joangarry.com. 

Scott M. Curran: If you don't have the domain name for Joanlandia. You guys need to get on that.

Joan Garry: I, I, you know, I have toyed with it. You need to check that one out. I, I have toyed with it. I thought somebody might get it from me, from my birthday or something. Yeah, yeah. I think it feels a little self-aggrandizing for me to do on my own. 

Scott M. Curran: Consider the the suggestion received.

Joan Garry: Duly noted, Mr. Curran.

Scott M. Curran: For those who may not know the size and scope of this industry, third largest in the country, 1.6 to 8 million nonprofits at any given time in the US alone. In the US alone, within their first 10 years, all a third of all new nonprofits will fail. Yep. Many of them should. But many of them shouldn't or don't need to. And it's avoidable. Um, it's messier than it needs to be. No. And that's what the Lab teaches. That's what you teach, which is that they, they don't need to be this messy. You cannot just survive, but thrive If you have access to the kind of coach, mentor, leadership, resources, education and community that you provide, which is when I was leaving the Clinton Foundation, I think I've told you this, but if I haven't, I should have. I felt like I was, it was 10 years building a super fast growing. A tiny little started as a former President's Foundation to build a library, and then by the time I left, we had 4,000 people in 40 countries, 35 US states working over a dozen initiatives. I felt like I had been working in the engine room in the basement for 10 years and trying to come out and squint in the light of day to figure out who else is out here.

Does anybody have any thoughts or feelings about jow to run a nonprofit. Well, because I knew that I had just been lucky to sit in a seat for a long time. That had a lot of attention, a lot of resources, and I had a lot of pro bono advice and I was like, I don't think everybody has a general counsel. I don't think everybody needs one. Certainly not full time. And I'm not sure they would know what to do if they had one. But is there anywhere I could go and find other people who are trying to teach people so that they don't have to wait or pay for or have that kind level ofexperience? 

Joan Garry: So where did you go, Scott?

Scott M. Curran: I went to the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. 

Joan Garry: You to the Nonprofit Leadership Lab! Come on. 

Scott M. Curran: And I felt like I found my people and then I felt found that there's this dynamic, you know, leader of it who. Uh, big personality and a couple ukuleles in her Zoom background. 

Joan Garry: I did, I do play the ukulele.

Scott M. Curran: As somebody who also has some ukuleles in the Zoom background.

Joan Garry: Yes. I was scary when I saw that. 

Scott M. Curran: Then I felt really at home. Yeah. Um, that felt great. 

Joan Garry: I thought, oh, two crazy people right here together. 

Scott M. Curran: First of all, I think the Lab is an answer to this question of how does it scale, but I, I don't think the :ab is done. I don't think you are done. I don't think the sector has everything it needs.

What's your grand vision? The same way you had that vision for GLAAD. What's your vision for the sector being served with the kind of work you do at scale from here, especially in these times when every nonprofit needs all of the help it can get. 

Joan Garry: I'll start by saying that the six to 8,000 members we have feels way too small to me, and that is not a profit motive.Like, I am happy as a plan. 

Scott M. Curran: It's huge for a membership based business. And you deserve a lot of credit for that. 

Joan Garry: Yeah, no, thank you. But I, there are so many people out there that, um, would, so benefit. From what we do inside the Lab. 

Scott M. Curran: I had no plans to say this, but I'm gonna say it anyway just to say it now, and in the middle of this, which is that I've had the good fortune of working with some big foundations that make big grants to lots of organizations and smaller grants to lots of organizations. In my view, if I could wave one magic wand right now, it would be that every single grant made by any grant maker in the country should come with a membership in the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. That is not a paid endorsement or a commercial. It's a strong feeling that I think that that would be one of the most immediate ways to wave a wand at virtually no cost to those organizations. But at extraordinary benefit to the sector and the individual organizations within that sector, they seek to serve. 

Joan Garry: I have actually just finished rewriting a vision document for Joanlandia. Right now we rely almost exclusively on digital marketing. And for me, the way to reach lots and lots of people is what you've just described, is to make big foundation plays.

What it does is not only scale it in terms of number of members, but it also introduces an accountability to use the Lab. If we have, there are two reasons that people leave the Lab. They don't have time. Or they, they don't have $49. Those things are connected

Scott M. Curran: which is what it costs per month's. Forty 49 a month.

Joan Garry: 500 for the year. So it is the best deal in town at at this moment in time. You scale by going to foundations that then introduce that accountability. And you can actually, you can actually grant people who don't get grants and say, spend a six months or nine months in the Lab and then come back to us.

So there's just enormous possibilities. So there's a possibilities. Big, and we're doing some, we're doing some pilot testing now on foundations, but big foundations, um, giving circles, women's foundations, community foundations. Doesn't even have to be the biggest guy, the biggest kids on the block. The, the dream of vision has, uh, English-speaking countries, maybe not even in just English speaking countries.

Because what we teach in the Lab, as you know, is universal. It's not specific to Canada. We have lots of Canadian members. It's about how do you fire, what do you do when you have a toxic board chair? Right? Right. That's universal. So we think that there's, um, a lot of ways to go. And I, my aspiration is it is the go-to the five star content and community for nonprofits, at least in the United States and North America. 

Scott M. Curran: I discovered you when I was leaving a decade of being at a big, fast growing, well resourced foundation that was highly scrutinized and very much in the news and withstood all that scrutiny and is alive and well today. I probably knew a lot, um, which is how I wound up in the consulting space myself and how we eventually met.I find value in the Lab today. it's impossible not to because for two reasons. One, the beginner's mindset is always a really great place to be. And to revisit often. basics matter mos., I even find some of the most high profile complex—hey're only so complex—but most people call them elite leve foundation boards still love to be reminded of the basics, the beginner mindset. Greatest hits never go out of style. 

Joan Garry: Well, there's another piece of it too, which is adjacent to that, which is the origin story of the organization, That reminding, getting a, a client to articulate the origin story of the organization, whatever that may be, is grounding.

If you actually get them to really focus on their origin story, they will see that they have strayed from it in varying ways That can actually make a huge difference in prioritizing or in fine tuning what they do, so that they can be perhaps be narrower and deeper rather than broader and not as. 

Scott M. Curran: Going back to basics is never a bad thing. It's, it's like going to the gym or having a personal trainer or anything else. Being reminded of your form and being reminded of, of which muscles to use at which point or, or how to pay attention to, to finishing. 

Joan Garry: I even know what you're talking about because I have a trainer. Do you have a trainer?

Scott M. Curran: Um, yeah. 

Joan Garry: I actually, I, I'm so glad because I thought it's a group training situation that would actually really be so bogus if you actually talked about that and you didn't have a trainer. 

Scott M. Curran: It's honestly as simple as like, you know, just remember to breathe. Yeah. The, um, elite mentality of some major foundations and or those with big names, um, or other reasons for high recognition value, need to sometimes be reminded that it is the basics that not only are their grant recipients struggling with, but they are too.

Joan Garry: Yes. And we believe that this is an antidote. Like, however the foundations are thinking about what they wanna do to meet this moment, this is something they can do. Very turnkey that they can offer to their grantees as a gift. We know this work is hard. The Leadership Lab, you know, leadership development, ongoing adaptive crisis related leadership development is something you need and we want you to have that because we want you to be successful and we wanna retain you.

And it's just something they can do right now while they're. You know, some nonprofits are frustrated that foundations are not moving enough quickly enough to meet the moment. This is a, I call this a big fat quick win. You asked me something else about sort of the aspiration for Joanlandia. So, when I started my coaching business, it was just me. So coaching keynotes, virtual workshops. Um, I think that there's a gap, and I'm thinking particularly about. What we might call progressive organizations for, um, a firm that just does coaching and does it with a, what I'm calling a squad, a squad of people who each bring something different that's in the foreground.

So come to Joan Garry Consulting and we'll get you a coach. Uh, if you are an ADHD leader, we have an ADHD coach. If you want to make your organization more culturally intelligent, we have that person, right? If you, if you're looking at LGBT. We have that person and that they almost become kind of a law firm, if you will, where they work. Maybe they meet monthly and they talk about their cli some of the, the issues their clients are facing and learn from each other as well. So that's another piece of the puzzle for me is that it, this is an enterprise that gets people, helps people at all phases of their journeys. 

Scott M. Curran: Top three or four issues that make.tmessy nonprofits messiest and or that you help solve in a way that you're really proud of? 

Joan Garry: One and two. I'm not sure which one I put one and which one I'd put two. Boards are not curated. We do not cast for people. Right. We come from a place of scarcity and we say, could you please be on my board? And so we don't tell them what the responsibility really is. We don't tell them they have important jobs and therefore they don't behave like they have important jobs. 

Scott M. Curran: And then we don't hold them accountable.

Joan Garry: Then we don't hold them accountable. I think about curating a board, like casting a play. Hmm. Right. And because so many organizations are relatively new and small, they're often founder-led organizations with the three names they had to put on the 501 C3 app, and that is just, it's a recipe for, um, staying small if you're lucky The second thing, and I, I teased to it before Scott, for the most part, people who run nonprofits have not learned the skills of being good managers. Like I had the benefit of that because I came from corporate America where that stuff actually happens. And so I know a P and L could read a balance sheet. 

Scott M. Curran: Have any idea what good HR looks like at all. 

Joan Garry: Exactly. Right. And so that combined with the bleeding heart people pleaser. Mm-hmm. So many client comes to me and says, I really need to move out, Betsy. Okay, let's move out Betsy, right? Oh, I, I dunno if I can, what's the worst thing that happens if you don't move out?

Betsy? Oh, well, if I don't move out, Betsy, Tom is gonna leave and then like three weeks later I have a session. She says, you're not gonna believe it. And I say, Tom got a new job. Didn't. That's the collateral damage of not holding Betsy accountable. So that is a huge issue that that sort of notion of management combined with kind of a control freak mentality that says I have to do it all.

If my board says jump, I have to say how high as opposed to. Help me understand my priorities. I have these three things on my list. Are you suggesting that I not do those three things and I do this instead? Help me. Right? Because board members don't think like that, but you have to. And so I, those are, so are the things that come to mind for me?

Scott M. Curran: You didn't say fundraising and development, which is usually, I didn't say which. Usually say usually the, the, the number one that most people think no is the issue. 

Joan Garry: I don't, because I think so much stems from having the right people On the board and a nonprofit leader who prioritizes. So you don't prioritize staring at your cash flow all the time.

You prioritize the cultivation and nurturing of relationships. You build a culture of storytelling on your board so that your board members don't think they have to go ask for money. They're just known to be ambassadors who invite people to come closer and closer so that you can then. Then they say, I want to be a part of what you're doing here.

Scott M. Curran: What is your best guidance and advice to those who are already, I'm gonna ask two questions. Who are already in the sector, who want to grow within it, but feel they're in the wrong place? The Toms of the world, do they try to be the change within and fix the organization, or do they go find an organization that has already put itself on a better trajectory?

Joan Garry: So is it, is Tom the executive director? 

Scott M. Curran: Might be. 

Joan Garry: Might be. 

Scott M. Curran: Or it might just be a rock star who's capable of it. 'cause we know that there's these rock stars who come into the, into a situation. I, I know for example right now an operations associate who's aCOO at any other nonprofit. Afraid to leave.

Joan Garry: And why is this person afraid? 

Scott M. Curran: You know, afraid may not be the best word. Um, they know that the organization is not achieving its highest and best purpose.Which is definitely a board and founder syndrome issue. They nee and see a clear path ahead. But I, and, and I've also let this person know, I was like, but just so you know. I, I think if you, I think you are one of the people who could stay and make this organization better, but you'll never be able to do it alone with Correct. In their case, the CEO and theboard and that person has overlapping and duties there.

Joan Garry: I actually, I actually coach people to, to, to recognize that you, that you are very, very talented and you are being thwarted by X, Y, and Z and the X, Y, and z. Are not within your control. 

Scott M. Curran: Limited ability to manage upward. 

Joan Garry: Correct. It might be a toxic CEO. You love your job, you're the head of programs, but you can't act, you have to spend so much time managing up and you don't get treated well.

Like there are people that need you. And I do think that, I've seen this with people who work for, you know, difficult, difficult bosses. Oh gosh. The nonprofit sector is just filled with people who believe. They can fix things and that includes people. Like if I just say the right thing to that board chair, she won't treat me badly.

If I can just make that case that CEO is gonna give me the autonomy I need to crush my job. No, maybe not. 

Scott M. Curran: What do you say to the founder? Board member? Executive director, sometimes all in one person who doesn't see it. Who doesn't see the challenge that that person, that op, that great operations pro or the person who might be a nonprofit expert or somebody who might be in your lab learning these things, um, wants to convey to them?

Is there a way to shake them loose of their founder syndrome or their myopia? 

Joan Garry: With my one-on-one clients, I vet them and I can probably tell within 20 minutes whether the person is coachable or not. If I feel like they are not. Uh, they, they are immovable. I will not take that organization's money. 

Scott M. Curran: Is there a shareable example lens you use to determine if somebody's coachable? 

Joan Garry: In one situation, I started to coach someone. I had a hunch the person was not coachable. Sometimes it's people who try to impress me with how good they are. Mm-hmm. They can't articulate what keeps them up at night. What are, what do they see  as their areas for growth and development? Right. Anybody who starts to blame those around them and does not take ownership or accountability for how they may be leading or, um, or managing.

Uh, in that one situation, I did start to coach this person and then I started to get to know some of the people that worked for her, and I said, you know what, you don't need a coach. But you know, who is a rock star in the making is this person. And I think we ought to take the coaching dollars and allocate them over here to this person—because this person is gonna make you look like a million bucks actually. And this person can have line responsibility for a lot of things if that person gets coaching. I basically played to their ego to reallocate the funds. But I have also, I have also actually gotten to a point where I've said I can't, I can't in good conscience take an organization's money because I don't feel like I'm gonna have impact, and that's just not something I can do.

Scott M. Curran: How do you talk to people outside of the nonprofit sector about the opportunity they have to make an impact, whether it's making a full leap into it or providing their skillset and or resources, whether it's as a board member, as an advisor, as a service provider, et cetera. 

Joan Garry: I believe so, is it, uh, is it Simon Sinek? I can't remember who says that the, the three most important things in job, uh, in job satisfaction are what you do: autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And I constantly am saying to everyone who works in the nonprofit sector, you have the purpose piece. Go sell it. Go market. It. Don't come from a place of scarcity.

Tell people you have the antidote. You have an an entire stadium filled of people who are hungry for meaning and purpose. They're hungry for it. They just need to be invited onto the field. And I, so I think we do a very lousy job of invi, of marketing nonprofit work. As the antidote towards helplessness, hopelessness, and the key to meaning and purpose.

There's just such a lack of awareness of the nonprofit sector. I asked somebody, I live in Montclair, New Jersey. I asked somebody, how many nonprofits do you think there are in Montclair? They said, I dunno, maybe 30. How about 95? Like. People don't really understand how much the nonprofit sector is a part of the fabric of a community.

Scott M. Curran: Give some examples that people wouldn't normally expect here. So most people are gonna think of things like the Y-M-C-A, food bank, a shelter, et cetera. Give some examples of others that people might be surprised about and just in your community. 

Joan Garry: Oh, historical societies, food banks, uh, addiction service organizations.

Scott M. Curran: I remind people that schools and hospitals, usually nonprofits.

Joan Garry: schools, hospitals. Churches, the art arts organizations, there's, uh, local musicians playing, you know, all, all of those kinds of things. The arts, I mean, that's what I talk about. The nonprofit sector exists to make the world more fair, more just, and more beautiful, and that those, if you think about it, and through those lenses, um, you can actually capture most of the 95.

Scott M. Curran: So if there's lawyers, accountants, um, bankers and others out there who aren't engaged with the sector, there's a good news message for them, which is that the communities that they work in, live in rely on, uh, invest in. Are all supported and held up by this sector, which is not having its best moment. 

Joan Garry: It is not.

Scott M. Curran: Um, but it's more important than ever in this moment. 

Joan Garry: When you think about, when I think about just in my own town, for example, those nonprofit organizations turned my town into a community. The Montclair Film Festival, the Montclair Ja Jazz House Kids, like all of those things make people proud to live in my town. And I do think that it's hard for somebody to just pick up the phone if you're a banker and call Jazz House Kids and say, I'd like to do something for your organization. It's not that they shouldn't do that, but I also think the onus is on the nonprofits coming together and saying, this is a movement in our community. We are, we are the folks that bring this, make this town a community and here are 25 different ways you can get involved. 

Scott M. Curran: What do you think most of the Lab members would want, either those in the private sector or government sector to know, or what you think they want their grantor to know about this moment and how they're working to meet it.

Joan Garry: That if they are given a $10,000 grant, they're gonna do right by it. And I feel like between. Boards of directors and funders, there are far too many constraints that are put on nonprofits that are inherent messages of distrust. I think we and we are now in a world and in a moment where the headline news is nonprofits are not to be trusted. 

That they're frauds, that they, they're doing things to catch, you know, tax exempt status. Like we need that, like we need a hole in the head at this moment in time. I think that many, many, many nonprofit leaders feel devalued. And I'm not just talking about devalued in terms of money, although that I think they mostly feel devalued by their boards.

I think their va, their boards are either, uh, either, uh, because they don't understand how important their jobs are. They're not supported. They do not have a partnership with their board. And so they're, they feel really hung out to dry. If we could educate board members that they have really important jobs, it could make all the difference in whether or not a nonprofit thrives and whether or not their executive director is set up to be the best they can be. 

Scott M. Curran: What can a board member, whether it's a current board member or somebody who's being invited to a board who might not be, who's probably not from the sector, the nonprofit sector, what should they know before they make that decision? Or what can they bring to the table to be that better board member? 

Joan Garry: They should actually really first be reflective about what they want out of board experience. When they leave that board, what is it they wanna be able to say? I'm so glad I was on this board. 

Scott M. Curran: Begin with the end in mind. 

Joan Garry: Right. Yeah. Right. I was so glad I was on this board because during the last four years, I saw it grow from X to Y. I'm proud of what I did. I think that executive directors should be meeting with each of their board members to say, stronger. What is it you bring? What's, what's the thing you bring to this board that I should be sure to tap into?

There should be much more conversation about what is that? Relationship look like when it's really working. 

Scott M. Curran: I see one problem on each side, so two in total. One is that too often I see nonprofit organizations or their existing boards or leadership founder, very often the founder say to to the board, what do you think about so and so?A person, fill in the name, right? Betsy or Tommy. As a board member, in which case they're being asked to give an opinion about. One option of one. Mm-hmm. Um, and that is always going to be the best option of one and the worst option of one. Yes. Because they're not asking themselves the better question about what does our board need right now? What does that person bring to the table? What is their level of enthusiasm? What is their level of familiarity and knowledge and contribution for our organization at this time? And so on the other side of it, I see people who are invited to serve on a board feeling really honored to be asked. And seeing it as a good thing. That's easy to say yes to if they even have a remote interest in it. But sometimes the delta between those two things is so big that there's no way that person's gonna be an effective board member. 

Joan Garry: If you join the nonprofit Leadership Lab, one of the first things we encourage you to do is watch our class that I call “How to Build a Board of Your Dreams,” and it introduces you to the idea of a composition matrix, right? What does the ideal board look like for xyz.org. And what do you have? What are your gaps? Right, and so rather than go to your board and say, ‘What do you think of Betsy?’ You go to your board and you say, ‘We could really use somebody who knows something about marketing and pr  and are, does anyone know of any minority public relations firms in the city so that we can put a diversity lens on that recruit?’ That's so much easier a question for me to answer. 

Scott M. Curran: Yeah, it gets more than one option on the table. 

Joan Garry: That's then you're casting right? And I think that's the key. And I believe the root cause of that is scarcity, is that we are so the person put in charge of nominations and recruitment is, um, their goal. Is to put X number of butts in X number of seats over a 12 month period. That's their goal. In some ways, that becomes much more important than I wanna wait and get the right people. If I get three terrific people that fill gaps in that composition matrix and they also bring some kind of a diversity of lived experience or something like that, I'd rather have three of those than the six.The six empty seats I'm supposed to fill. 

Scott M. Curran: You have an incredible podcast that everybody should listen to, especially but not limited to nonprofit leaders, and you have people who are definitely not nonprofit leaders, but are nonprofit fans and supporters on it all the time. Tell us about some of those guests. I'm thinking of Seth Godin's, one of them that you had recently who was amazing. Michael Hyatt, who is another person who I. Follow and enjoy as much as I do you. Um, and then what books are you reading right now? 

Joan Garry: I had BJ Fog on my podcast and he is written a book called Tiny Habits, and I felt like it was terribly resonant for nonprofit leaders to be able to cut things into bite-sized pieces. And I just loved BJ Fog and I'm a huge Adam Grant fan. So he can do no wrong by me when he is talking about. Work culture or any of those things that really speak to me. 

Scott M. Curran: Michael Hyatt's a wonderful productivity guru, and I take his goal setting every single year, his webinar, every year.

Totally. It's a great refresher. Another example of the greatest hits in the beginner's mindset, um, you've recently had him on as well.

Joan Garry: I have, but I'm gonna tell you something, Scott, that I think some of the most, uh, powerful and most popular podcasts we've had. Don't have big names on them at all. I think one of my favorite episodes is called “From Kitchen Volunteer to Board Chair” and it is my friend Sylvia and she started slicing and dicing vegetables for God's Love We deliver in New York. And she’s great volunteer manager kept the kitchen folks really connected. She offered to help with direct mail 'cause she had that background. So she did that volunteer work and she spent so much time in the kitchen and she was staring at the tiles in the kitchen, and she said to the head of development, ‘Why don't we sell the tiles? 250 bucks for a tile? Maybe it's, you know, and, and the tile has a heart. If the person is no longer with us,’ A million dollars, she raised! Right. This is a person who does not have capacity. She became the board chair, led the tile project, and it's just such a great story of that organization worked to keep, you know, she could just have sliced and diced vegetables and left, but they engaged her. They invited her to come closer and closer, and because of what she knew about that organization.

She was able to generate an innovative idea even though she herself did not have capacity. 

Scott M. Curran: We don't have to look to the biggest names or expect to be them to have the biggest impact. It goes back to your origin story that you did not set out to be a pioneer. You were just setting out to be a good parent who was looking out for your kids. And trying to make sure that they were protected and well served in the event that. 

Joan Garry: And I want, and I, you know, you, you, you, I'm sure you think this too, like I want my kids to look back and say, you know, my mom did something that really mattered. There's a, um, a really powerful li little known TEDx talk, um, a Long Island EMT. He’d done it for years and he was always asked by, often asked, ‘Am I gonna make it to the hospital?’ And he said, ‘I, I didn't feel like that was my. That was my, that wasn't mine to say, but it felt disingenuous because after 20 years of doing this, I knew who was gonna make it and who wasn't.’ And so finally he said, ‘I changed my mindset about it. And I started to say it softly, I'm not sure you're gonna make it.’ And he said the two questions he was most often asked, one of them—and this is complete stranger to an EMT, ‘Do you think people will remember me?’ And then the follow-up question to the complete EMT stranger: ‘Will you remember me?’ And that is a, just a human foundational thing.

When I heard that, I was like, if that's what it's gonna feel like when I'm in that ambulance. Like I want the, I want there to be the right answer for me. Right. I wanna know that people knew I was here. I mean, we're, we're right now in the middle of the Jewish holidays. I'm a Jew by choice. Um, I love the notion that Jews believe you are here to do good work.

You're not here to do, do good work to win valuable prizes and a key to heaven. And, um, but that's, to me, that's what  it's all about. Like, not, not that I wanna be remembered. I just, I wanna know I made a mark. And for, for me, and I think you probably feel the same way. You want your kids to know that too. 

Scott M. Curran: It speaks to the importance of human connection in every moment. Especially our most difficult. And we're certainly all living through some difficult moments. It speaks to the importance of legacy and leaving things better than we found it. I think of few people, um, in higher regard than I think of you when I think of the work that somebody does on a day-to-day basis to make the world a better place. So I'm glad that you had that experience early on, and that it brought you. Into the nonprofit world because I'm not sure where it would be without you. And what I like most though, Joan, is that I still feel like you're still just getting started. 

Joan Garry: I feel like I'm starting to get a little bit old. The ideas don't, are not turning off at all. 

Scott M. Curran: Thank you, Joan. 

Joan Garry: Thank you Scott. 

Scott M. Curran: Thank you for tuning into Better Good. If you enjoyed the show, remember to rate, review, share, and subscribe.